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March 1st, 2020 100 comments

What Did You Think of The Timeless Children?

Now that the Final episode of series 12 has aired what did you think? Was it everything you had hoped for or not what you expected.

The Cybermen are on the march. The last remaining humans are hunted down. Lies are exposed, truths are revealed, and for the Doctor nothing will ever be the same.











Single constructive comments on the article in question only. The reply facility has been permanently removed.


100 comments

  • Dalek Eye Stalk

    March 3rd, 2020 - 12:12am

    Soon be time to call time on this tired old show. For Chibnall taking the show back into itself, delving into the back story and mystery of the Doctor, is now a show lost of ideas. It’s what often happens when shows near their end. Plus viewing figures for a peak time on a Sunday are dreadful. The two part series finale both getting under 4 million is poor. The next series has to be Jodie Whitakers last. Then the show needs to be rested. And be brought back at the right time, when the public and fans remember it fondly again and want it back.

  • Doctor Stu

    March 2nd, 2020 - 10:17pm

    Rory Doctor River Pond, the shebogans aren’t a Chibnall invention, that’s literally what they’re called

  • Doctor Stu

    March 2nd, 2020 - 10:13pm

    Pat, the doctor as a child in the barn was the first Doctor so that part still makes sense, as he grows up, enters the academy and gets injected with his 12 regeneration limit juice.

  • ColinB

    March 2nd, 2020 - 10:01pm

    After viewing it a 2nd time I concluded the following:

    The master on meeting the doctor through the portal from Gallifrey must be before “Spyfall”. Because why would the master kept saying he went back to Gallifrey to destroy it then taunt the doctor over and over again.

    My reason is the master destroyed Gallifrey then met the doctor through portal. After the destruction of the new timelord/cybermen hybrid, the master did escape and eventually ended up on Earth before being trapped in the dimension of the Kasaavins.

    So when the Doctor arrived during “Spyfall” she did not recognise him because it was in her past but from the master point of view it was his future. That would explain why he taunted her again and again with the destruction of Gallifrey

    I accept the regeneration cycle used for the people of Gallifrey was indeed created using the DNA of the timeless child and they limited themselves to 12 regenerations before dying. But how many Timelords have more than 12?

    We know the master has more than 12 because in the Keeper of Traken he was on his last regeneration but cheated death so many times by regenerating at least 5 times. The doctor has had more regeneration cycles because River Song gave up her remaining ones to the doctor and the time lords also gave him more during the end of Matt smith doctor. Maybe even Tecturn has more than 12 (but that is speculation)

    Then there is theory that the doctor had more faces in the Brain of Morbius.

    I actually I believe that the faces shown belong to Morbius and not the doctor. Because during the mind battle Morbius taunted the Doctor about how far he could go back having only 4 faces, whereas Morbius had more faces in the battle which I why he won. Of course this caused the Doctor to die but at the same time it also affected Morbius’s Brain.

    Also there no proof that the doctor is that the timeless child other than what The Master says. And he can’t be sure because sections of it in the matrix have been redacted and concealed with other images.

    I also mentioned earlier that the Doctor (Ruth) could be before the 1st Doctor. I believe I was wrong on that. The reason is in the Matrix the Doctor (Ruth) knew about resolution of the time/lord/cybermen hybrid problem and pushed The Doctor (Jodi) into dealing with it.

    So the Doctor (Ruth) must be a future incarnation but still does not remember the Doctor (Jodi) for some reason which so far has not been explained.

    I have to admit I found this side of the story far more interesting than the Cybermen plot.

    Also there is The Master’s Tardis, The Doctor Tardis and 2 other Tardis’s (disguised as a house and a tree) now stuck on earth .

  • Pats86

    March 2nd, 2020 - 8:55pm

    Glad I didn’t post last night, I was at that point very upset. After watching this evening again and giving it some thought I am actually fine with it mostly.

    If anything it makes the Who in Doctor Who more relevant, where is the Doctor from? The Doctor is not Gallifreyan but from somewhere else entirely!

    Sacha Dhawan was perfect as the Master, Bradley Walsh as Graham the rock of this series and last.
    Yaz was rubbish and Ryan even more so.
    Jodi had her best outing as the Doctor but that was down to the fact she was asleep for half the episode (saw this statement elsewhere, lol funny at the time)
    Yet again Jo Martin’s Doctor was superior to anything Jodie has done in the last two seasons, no one expected anything else though.

    I can’t say much because it has already been said but I do have four questions that hopefully someone can answer?

    1, Why did the Doctor when being looked after as a child on Gallifrey regenerate as a child/young adult? the Doctor didn’t grow up then regenerate? Makes no sense.

    2, If gender is fluid on Gallifrey why did the Doctor go through 13 regenerations as a white male? (Poor cannon ruining by Moffatt and Chibnall)

    3, Rassilon was the founder of Gallifrey originally, was he one of the three Time Lords seen in this episode?

    4, In the brilliant episode “Listen”, the Doctor remembers being a young boy on Gallifrey, so was this him or a memory implant?

    All in all I am fine with what I watched, not happy that the rich history of this show has been stomped on again (becoming the norm isn’t it?)
    But what else can we do? stop watching as others clearly have, and be a part of the reason for getting it cancelled again? Or go with it and see how it pans out?
    Once I get my head around the changes (already starting to do this although not easy) it will be OK, ad I have said it has added to the who in Doctor Who.

    If it gets worse we can always go back to Capaldi’s final and pretend he died instead of regenerating and live of Big Finish stories.

    7/10

  • RPG74

    March 2nd, 2020 - 8:41pm

    Isn’t that funny. The trendy, lefty PC Radio Times, a publication that has positively fawned over Chibnall Who for the last two years, just took a huge dump on ‘The Timeless Children’. Their review labels the episode ‘an awful, boring mess’, and the reviewer finishes by stating that it’s time for the series to be rested. A majority of us here, on these boards, would agree with those comments-but then we would, wouldn’t we? When usually-sympathetic rags turn on the show-a few weeks ago, The Guardian referred to one of the episodes as being ‘too woke’-that’s when you know the end is near.

  • The Moffat Paradox

    March 2nd, 2020 - 8:01pm

    The Time Lord with a headache. Don’t expect rules of logic in modern Who I’m afraid.

  • Anonymous

    March 2nd, 2020 - 7:33pm

    I’ve watched since the ice warriors and this has got to be the worst it’s ever been I was embarrassed to watch this season and won’t be watching anymore thank God for classic series dvds and big finnish

  • Thomas S

    March 2nd, 2020 - 6:46pm

    I did have a thought when the Doctor was about to press the trigger that given the secrecy around the series maybe the images of the Daleks being filmed for the next special were fake and this really would be the end. Would not have been a bad way to go out!

    Don’t mind the storyline, can’t win with us fans, don’t progress the mythology and there is criticism, progress it and there is criticism.

    I would like to see more off earth stories going forward.

    Next year could be interesting!

  • The Time Lord with a headache

    March 2nd, 2020 - 3:28pm

    Any explanation of where Doctor Ruth fits into the timeline, and why she has a police box tardis? Don’t see how she fits in after Hartnell’s Doctor, and don’t see how she fits in before? Is she like the Valeyard and just doesn’t fit into any known continuity? Is Doctor Ruth from a parallel aborted timeline? Did the Valeyard tamper with the Matrix much more than we thought, and altered the Doctors past by creating the timeless child story as a cover story for something else entirely? I’m confused.

  • prototype dalek

    March 2nd, 2020 - 2:53pm

    Consolidated figures for Ascension of the Cybermen at 4.98 million and overnight for the Timeless child at 3.78, and USA figures struggling to make half a million in a country of a third of a billion which shows you how bad its gone, even as bad as series 10.

    After the special this year I think will be my last episode, I tried to give things a chance but even with better stories than series 11, I personally still couldn’t get in to it.

    Taking away the Who in Doctor Who in all but name did it for me, no mystery anymore as it has now been told and I am not keen on the Doctor being an immortal type person. Not my doctor anymore. I just struggle to believe how anyone can say this series was 9 or 10 out of 10, especially comparing it to past series, not saying they were 100% great but they were a lot better.

    Doctor who isn’t what it was and the viewing figures confirm that and also that the 13th Doctor (or 213th Doctor it should be now) Doll struggled to sell at B&M for just £5 and the 10th Doctor Build a bear selling a lot quicker than the 13th Doctor bear.

  • whovian

    March 2nd, 2020 - 2:17pm

    Well, judging by the polls for this episode, a lot of people enjoyed it (And good for them)

    Spyfall Part 1 8.5/10
    Spyfall Part 2 6/10
    Orphan 55 9/10
    Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror 4/10
    Fugitive of the Judoon 5/10
    Praxeus 2/10
    Can You Hear Me? 1/10
    The Haunting of Villa Diodati 6.5/10
    Ascension of the Cybermen 7/10
    The Timeless Children What the…./10

  • Anonymous

    March 2nd, 2020 - 12:32pm

    Slight rise in ratings 3.78 but poor for so called grand finale new producer needed now give Jodie chance

  • RORY DOCTOR RIVER POND

    March 2nd, 2020 - 11:47am

    I really still don’t know what to think of all of that. I enjoyed it, but I didn’t find it shocking, or emotionally heart wrenching. It would have been much more satisfying to see one of the companions satisfy themselves for the Doctor, as I couldn’t give a monkeys about Ko Sharmus. And Chibnall literally thinks of the worst names for people… Shebogans? Seriously? Doesn’t sound ancient, or noble. I don’t know if altering the canon was necessary, I’m not sure why they felt that was needed. Still confused about Ruth. The Lone Cyberman was utterly wasted, as he was probably the most engaging villain of Whittaker’s run. Unsure why the Master did all of that stuff, unsure why he wanted to merge with the Cybermen with Time Lords. And was it worth destroying Gallifrey again? Are the Time Lords extinct again? Will they bring it back in the next anniversary? I feel like if I don’t think about it too much I will enjoy it, but if I overthink and get into it, I’ll just question a lot of things.

  • Anonymous

    March 2nd, 2020 - 9:03am

    After needing time to digest all that I can now say that was a pretty cool piece of writing. This sort of thing has been hinted at since the 70s. We all know about the The Brain of Morbius but more interestingly, the 7th Doctor constantly hinted that he was “…far more than just another Time Lord”. The subconscious awareness that Seven had also explains the countless times the Doctor makes strange and often inconsistent remarks about his past or age.

    Rather than mess up the mythology, I believe that episode just allowed room for everything to be explained whilst still leaving enough mystery about the Doctor’s past to be explored by future writers – such as who abandoned the Doctor (as the Timeless Child) and from where did she come. Also, where in her timeline does the Ruth Doctor fit. Its obviously pre memory Wip and therefore pre first Doctor but it would be nice to know if she was the last incarnation before the Doctor’s memories were wiped. I suspect so as that would fit with a nice explanation I saw in twitter for how the TARDIS was stuck as a Police Box prior to the First Doctor – “She was in on Gallifrey for repair when I borrowed her”. The Doctor unknowingly previously travelled in it and it had got stuck as a police box before – so found it easier to get stuck as a police box a second time (due to obstinacy or something). A quirk they didn’t repair. He very nearly took the wrong one, so Clara nudged him back on the right path.

    The only downside was how quickly and easily the Lone Cyberman was dealt with. I would have liked to have seen him survive and go one to be a re occurring enemy.

  • ??????

    March 2nd, 2020 - 8:37am

    RIP Dr Who
    Destroyed over 50 years of history in less than an hour
    Please don’t bother with the festive special the real fans have suffered enough as far as I am concerned the programme finished when Capaldi left the role

  • Doctor Mysterio

    March 2nd, 2020 - 3:33am

    Great stuff tonight. If you had to write a text book on how to make a tv show about one main character still be new, interesting and exciting after 57 years, you’d base it on this. Everything seemed new, and yet familiar.
    Jodie was once again on top form, with some great scenes this episode. Loved the idea of the Cyber Time Lords and they looked great (take note Eaglemoss!), the Master was back to his usual self, and even the companions all had stuff to do. All in all, a great finale.
    This season has been a real highlight for me, and ranks up there with seasons 4 and 10 as the best of new Who. More like this please!
    If there was a negative in this episide, the one thing I missed was Murray Gold’ s music, having been spoilt for many years by his wonderful scores.
    Some people wrote this show off after last year, but as tv moves away from its reliance on ratings and into being all about providing digital content for on demand streaming, the quality of the content this season will ensure this mad old show we all love is still being enjoyed many years into the future.

  • Ryan

    March 2nd, 2020 - 2:57am

    Surprisingly awful considering the wonderful setup of the lone cyberman… we develop a complex villain who undoubtedly could have had a great backstory (a willing supplicant to the cybermen? Go on…)…

    …and we cast him aside instantly for a mustache twirling version of the master.

    The reveal… and subsequent conclusion, is a real let down, and really just seems to be “lets grind the original concept of the Doctor and their origin (and decades of history) into dust and then kill the dust with a death particle”.

    All this week I’ve been thinking “please don’t make the timelords humans… please don’t make the timelords humans”.

    And now… “Oh… we should have just made the timelords humans”. That’s how bad this was.

  • Firelight

    March 2nd, 2020 - 1:40am

    I thought of another explanation for the plot this series…

    Maybe The Doctor is actually Tecteun and The Timeless Child was actually Susan!

    After all the idea that the Doctor is the Timeless Child was based on The Masters reasoning (not very sound at the best of times)…

    Some people have asked me how the Irish scenes fit in… One take on this was that with her memory mainly erased her mind was creating those scenes to try to fit together the fragments still there… The baby found on the road = The Timeless child found on the planet. The father = Tacteun. Him falling off the cliff = The Timeless Child falling and regenerating. The policeman who interviews him for the job = A Division Agent. Him retiring and being brain zapped = The Timeless Child’s memory being erased. The other take is that the Master was right and Tacteun buried it in the Matrix as a clue for The Doctor to find but the above pair matching still holds true if that is the case.

    The Cyber-Lords came over as the creations of an insane mind… The Masters… of course he’d make them like that… don’t forget HE always dresses for the occasion… Oh and only The Master and some of the 12 Cyber-Lords would have survived as I suspect his final words of “All of you, through here – now!” meant his TARDIS was attached to the side of the Matrix room…

    The finale has potentially answered so many question from the classic series “The Morbius Faces”, “The Other”, Why The Doctor fled from Gallifrey, etc.

    This ending has left open a huge number of possibilities for future writers…

    Was the Timeless Child really the Doctor? Why was the Timeless Child expelled from her own universe in the first place? Could her falling from the Boundary have caused her to regenerate into a child? Was the Doctor The Other before having his/her mind wiped? Does the TARDIS remember being with the “Ruth” Doctor? Does The ‘Ruth’ Doctor come straight before the 1st Doctor? How long has the TARDIS been a Police Box? Was it in for repair when the Doctor ‘borrowed it’ or was it too having it’;s memories erased? Did they force regenerate Doctor ‘Ruth’ into the 1st Doctor and plant a memory to run in his mind? In which case who is Susan? Was she really his/her granddaughter or another memory wiped agent? Or was SHE the Timeless Child? Did the Division become the CIA? Is the Doctor able to regenerate indefinitely? Are there refugee Time Lords wandering the Universe like The Master and The Doctor? If the Doctor is The Timeless Child does he/she still have the memories of her/his life in the other Universe/Dimension buried deep in her mind? Are the Cybermen now gone from the Universe? (Well from that point in time onwards).

    So many possibilities!

  • Whorules

    March 2nd, 2020 - 1:33am

    Ok, I’ve thought about this so here goes.

    The doctor appears through the rift. Where from? Another dimension?  A future gallifrey? A normal world and her exposure to the rift creates her genetic abilities which would explain the perpetual regenerations (something rassilon has apparently as well.) She is taken to gallifrey where her abilities are discovered. Now the doctor is not gallifrean she is not born there but she is the first gallifrean as we know them, her genetic code being used to create the race that became time lords. Fast forward and the doctor joins the ultra secret organisation and embarks on a life of missions (ruth) perhaps perpetually regenerating in their service. This past life includes owning a tardis it’s outer shell in the form of a police box. The doctor seems to have the same character throughout their lives and the blue box is known throughout the universe as is the doctor. (This makes more sense if there were many doctors throughout the aeons.) Many years later the doctor decides to retire from the organisation.  They allow the doctor to leave but only after the doctors memories are wiped of all knowledge of his/her past.
       How have I reached this conclusion?  Brendan. I feel that the Brendan section wasn’t reality but a matrix projection sent by ruth(?)  Think about what the sections showed. A child found in mysterious circumstances.  Adopted and growing up to serve an organisation.   The ability to survive injury. Brendan doesn’t regenerate when shot, he just wakes up which hints to me that this is just a projection one that is designed to remind the doctor of her past. When Brendan retires after a life of service he has his memory wiped. So the whole sequence is telling of the doctor’s past.
       Back to gallifrey. The doctor’s mind is wiped. A regeneration is forced one that returns the doctor to childhood. To all intents and purposes the doctor is in his first, original body. That is what he believes to be true so for him and all others around him it is true.  All the people around him think he is what he thinks he is. As far as they are concerned this child is the first doctor. He is placed secretly with a family or openly adopted by a family either way he is a child on gallifrey, grows up, goes to the academy with the master,  marries, has children, grandchildren. Hen he decides to leave. 
    Why? Perhaps because he feels the need to travel, to explore. The doctor is always the doctor. And even if he fails to remember it the doctor travelled in his in unremembered past.  So he leaves.  In an antiquated tardis in for repairs. A tardis that choose the doctor according to it’s own words,  with a little nudge from Clara.  Shortly after beginning his travels the doctor ends up on earth. And the tardis turns into a police box. Which actually makes no sense. Why a police box if the tardis has landed in a junk yard? So maybe the tardis decided to be a police box again.
      So the doctor, the original,  as far as he is concerned journeys on. Fast forward to his fourth body and morbius. He engages in a mind bending game. And the doctor loses. Morbius is winning. Forcing the doctor back. And there they are. The unknown faces. A silly production joke  that didn’t make sense in story terms. But now it does.  They were some of the doctor’s unknown past lives. But the doctor is is in agony then unconscious and remembers nothing and he continues on through the centuries.  Eventually he enters his final regeneration,  meets Amy and rory then Clara and ends up on trenzalore.  Now when Clara entered his time stream she only encountered his current regeneration cycle, the one doctor remembers. The doctor has no knowledge or access to those lives.
     Then we come to his final end. Ciara begs for help and the time lords grant the doctor more rengerations. But here’s the thing the doctor and the time lords are unaware that the doctor would have just regenerated regardless.  He and they are unaware he is the timeless child capable of perpetual regenerations.  In 2013 it was the perfect way of keeping the doctor going but now we have a new version that supersedes that one. The doctor would have regenerated anyway but he thought he was at the end.
    The doctor then begins what he thinks is a new regeneration cycle but in fact is just a continuation of the many lives they have lived. And now she knows. Her life may be a lie but she still lived that life. That and many others. But always the doctor.
    Sorry for the huge post booboo. I just think people need to relax after all doctor who is fiction. And remember most of the “facts” fans know about the time lords come from the virgin books. All of which were contradicted by the eighth doctor in the movie when he mentions he remembers his father. In the books time lords were grown on looms, which I always though was fans being squeamish about the idea of the doctor having children of his own! Bring on the next series!

  • Anonymous

    March 2nd, 2020 - 12:25am

    Wish people could get the fact that’s far as hartnell’s doctor is concerned he is the original doctor. The doctor was a child on gallifrey, grew up married had kids ran away and now she finds out a truth which explains how she is different from other time lords. Brilliant stuff.

  • Anonymous

    March 2nd, 2020 - 12:21am

    There is an explanation for ruth having the tardis. When the doctor is retired from this mystery organisation the doctor’s memories are wiped, they are regenerated into a baby, placed with a family and the first doctor continues on as we know. Fast forward and the doctors original tardis is in the repair bay when he goes to steal one. Clara helps but as the tardis says she choose the doctor. The doctor appears to have always been similar in their past lives so the tardis was once police box for whatever reason. Shortly after being taken by the first doctor the tardis was once again chooses to be a police box. I have no problem with the whole timeless child idea. The doctor is not the God of the time lords as someone on here stated, just the genetic source. It makes sense of the brain of morbius and the most important point is that it’s just a fictional show. People need to calm down! I’ve enjoyed who more this year than I have for ages (and I’ve loved new who) and I’ve been watching for 46 years. If you want to stop watching… bye… if not… bring on more Jodie. And bring on revolution of the daleks!

  • Gordon

    March 1st, 2020 - 11:07pm

    Nothing has been retconned. William Hartnell could still be the first doctor post mindwipe so nothing has really changed. He/she wasn’t the doctor pre mindwipe so technically nothing has changed regarding Hartnell. It’s actually added back story to pre hartnell and added a ton of mystery there. Plus who is to say what she was seeing was actually true. The matrix has a history of lying and the doctor denied this reality. The master did say everything you know is a lie. Could that include what the master is telling her in the matrix? He had plenty of time to alter things in there.

    As for the episode itself I thought it was fine. Nothing special though. Sacha and Jodie were phenomenal with what they had to work with and I do hope this incarnation of the master will somehow turn up again after a break in a couple of years time. The yaz Ryan and Graeme stuff felt like kind of redundant with everything else going on though I did love the scene with Graeme and yaz. I had a lot of questions going in and leaving I had an answer but so many more questions. Oh well always season 13 for that

  • Mick C

    March 1st, 2020 - 10:35pm

    Quite enjoyed it, the only small thing i have to question is how did the Judoon beam into a Tardis?
    I think a lot of people here aren’t getting the point being made. and seem to think that the writers are now saying that “this Doctor “ has had thousands or even millions of regenerations but just can’t remember them, I don’t think that is the case at all, i think what they are saying is the Timeless Child/Doctor lives the standard group of 12 regenerations then is returned to being a baby with no memories at all of that previous group of 12 regenerations and each “life” is totally seperate
    I think what they are saying is that there has been countless Timeless Child/Doctors each with there own cycle of 13 “lives” and Ruth is another of those Doctors not a Doctor from the current regeneration cycle “life” Ruth maybe from the past or maybe a future “life”. I think people may need to look at each “life” as a totally seperate person just sharing the same DNA.
    I know of nothing in Dr Who lore that stops the writers from going down this path.
    My biggest bugbear with new Who has been the decision to take Gallifrey out of the picture by destroying it and the Timelords, twice now. Some of the best stories from the original Who were set around the interaction between the Timelords and the Doctor and I can’t understand this ongoing decision to kill off the Timelords in new Who.

  • Anonymous

    March 1st, 2020 - 10:32pm

    What a mess best episode for Jodie she spent half of it asleep

  • Anonymous

    March 1st, 2020 - 10:30pm

    Thank God for big finish least they know what they’re doing not like the farce on tv produced by so called fan time it was axed again

  • Trenzalore

    March 1st, 2020 - 10:17pm

    Underwhelming, it felt a lot like Chibnall just dug out his fanfictions he wrote in the 70s and 80s after watching the Brain or Morbius or The Five Doctors, meaning that many of the plot points felt very immature such as hearing the theme music, regenerating cybermen and timeless child. Gallifrey destroyed again, the doctor having to press the button been there done that. Poor directing in that I didn’t think the space was used very well, that little set inside Gallifrey looked very low budget which doctor who normally does better to hide. I will say however that Chibnall is the only writer that can write for Yaz, she was great here and if she was on her own with the doctor she could be one of the best companions. To be honest I’m not a huge fan of the new master, I think its a slight disservice to Michelle Gomez’s master and the developments in series 10 and the direction they were going there, the doctor master relationship definitely seems less mature and less well written now.

    Overall it just felt like a fanfic nothing else to say, too many things just didn’t sit right or were questionable, I was reading that Chibnall doesn’t read criticisms or reviews of his stories and it shows

  • Doctor Stu

    March 1st, 2020 - 9:55pm

    Ok that episode was sooo good but the part with the theme tune was soooo cringe. That was the perfect chance for them to use Thirteens beautiful theme within a montage remembering all her past selves but it was so cheesy.

    And why are people so triggered for. If this was Moffat and you the Doctor was still Capaldi they’d be praising it to high heaven

  • Anonymous

    March 1st, 2020 - 9:52pm

    Appalling. I switched it off as soon as the Master told the Doctor that she was the Timeless Child. Utter disgrace and Chibnil has completely broke Doctor Who. Everyone come gather and give him a round of applause because bravo on him. Bye bye Doctor Who. You were fun while it lasted.

  • The Drums The Never Ending Drum Beat

    March 1st, 2020 - 9:41pm

    I’m done with doctor who

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